How is it that a person like me can be raised in a home where I felt so Jewish, and yet, knew almost nothing about Judaism?
How is it that a person like me can go to six years of Hebrew school and not know which prayers to say when?
How is it that a person like me, who loved Hebrew school, was always beyond proud to be Jewish, never learned the importance of prayer until I was an adult?
How is it that a person like me, even though nobody told me, knew that certain things should and shouldn’t be?
How is it that reform Judaism can function as it does, raising thousands of Jewish children, like me, who were raised so Jewish (culturally) yet oblivious and ignorant (religiously) of the things that TRULY make Judaism beautiful? The faith, the religion and the religious rituals that connect to prayer…all of these seem to have been swept under the rug. And you know what…I feel robbed!
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Like regular school, what you learn in hebrew school has a better chance of sticking when it’s reinforced at home. I went to hebrew school from kindergarten to 10th grade…do I remember most of what I learned? Nope! I had the benefit of belonging to NCSY for a little while but I don’t remember much from that either. I also went to a Jewish day camp and what I learned from that was the Jewish connection to nature, which is nice.
I was thinking about this the other day when you raised the issue Tamara, but this is a very profound and complex question that many scholars have been struggling with for a very long time. Rabbi Arthur Hertzberg was one of these, sadly he passed on last week. He covered some of this same familiar territory in “Being Jewish in America” (1978) and again in “The Jews in America” (1989), & “Jewish Polemics” (1992). It’s not just a Reform vs. Conservative issue, it’s much larger than that, and the dynamic has been going on for a very long time indeed. As ever, there’s no easy answers. Hertzberg was at least able to be bemused by it at times. But it’s very deep & heavy stuff like Very old cooking. Cheers & Good Luck, ‘VJ’
Hey Tamara
Now you know I am not Jewish but having said that, me does have some thoughts on the subject.
BTW thanks for sharing your thoughts on my blog a few days back, and I am 33 btw.
I have friends from just about every ilk of Judaism and although I know there is truth to what you’re a saying; don’t throw the reform baby out with the bath water.
I do think that sometimes spiritual direction is underdeveloped in Reform but I know orthodox people who are more clueless about spiritual things. I mean what is the value of something drilled into someone in an environment without choice or curiosity; it runs the risk of being hollow, nothing more than ritual and simple theatrics. I have met many “more traditional” Jews who just do and don’t think about the why behind it. I am not saying that its the norm with more traditional forms of Judaism but just that like Reform it does happen.
I am no expert and I don’t know you at all but I think what you are doing right now is very Reform. You are questioning and exercising choice (informed choice is a corner stone of reform) and that is a spiritually fertile ground to till.
Don’t throw the baby out with the bath water and I myself wouldn’t assume that more observant communities are spiritual, I think they can be just as empty.
The way I see it your ability to stretch, question, and seek are gifts given to you by Reform.
What do I know I am just a goy-boi, full of crazy ideas and regardless of the why’s I think what you are doing is good and your a cool kid in my eyes.
Cheers and thanks for sharing with this post.
Nani: I agree with your point about reinforcement at home. It’s so true and I so wish my parents had more Jewish schooling. I went to Jewish sleepover camp. I learned, again, some Jewish songs, art projects, but nothing of real essence.
VJ: Like very old cooking? You’re always so profound
TikkunGer: Too late, I’ve already thrown the reform baby out. I have to strongly disagree with you that questioning is a reform trait. Granted, I grew up very liberal and I’m a teacher so I inherently question; however, Judaism is all about questioning, learning, understanding. What do you think Jewish scholars did all those hours while writing commentaries on Torah and Gemarah and such? They were questioning and figuring it all out for themselves.
I do like how you said, “spiritual connection is underdeveloped”; however, in my experiences it was just simply missing, so it seemed. Perhaps individuals found their own connections but it wasn’t nurtured or encouraged in my learnings or in temple. And yes, there are many observant Jews who were raised that way and have somehow lost that fire, so it become rote. Yet, they at least have the foundations. They know the “whys”. Why do we do this or that.
I just have to say I don’t think I made a claim that one who is more observant than me is more spiritual. I simply was making the point that, for me, the reform “movement” did me an injustice by taking the essence of Judaism and watering it down, throwing out what wasn’t wanted and changing things that weren’t liked.
I brought this up to my rabbi over yontif lunch yesterday and we got into a discussion about how the reform and conservative movements started. I have to admit I didn’t know the real history. I was suprised to find out that reform started in Germany in I think the 17 or 1800’s (I should look this up). Since reform was so drastic in comparison to traditional ways back then, eventually a conservative movement began because they felt not reform but no longer orthodox.
I dunno. I still stick to my initial feelings on this. I still feel a bit robbed or cheated. However, I do appreciate your comments
Hi Tamara
I think you brought up a few good points.
Sorry I wasn’t implying that you felt that the more observant equaled more spiritual; however, I am comfortable saying that’s the usual consensus from Orthodox and Hasidic Jews. Let me clarify that by saying many of the ones with whom I come into contact.
Regardless, the point is that it’s your path and you pick what’s good for you, but I stand my ground and say that reform makes room for that, you can go and do what you’re doing now, even go ultra-orthodox and the reform community in my opinion is going to be much more accepting of your choice than an Orthodox community would be if it was the reverse situation.
Anyhow that’s just my opinion, and it really doesn’t matter, because I’m not criticizing you or your choice, in fact I think it needs to be all about choice. Ultimately, I’m impressed by what you’re doing, because you’re taking responsibility for your own spiritual development. And you’re doing it within the context of Judaism, instead of running off to some ashram and becoming a Hindu or a Buddhist.
As for questioning not being part of Reform, I understand that this is not been your experience, but it’s even in its historical roots. And if you get into the history of reform you’ll see how the enlightenment and the idea of questioning really is a big part of things, for better or for worse, who knows, but it is there.
Anyhow, like I said, cool kid (and that’s not meant as a condescending thing at all, because I don’t even think I am a cool kid)!
I think it’s sad you haven’t met observant people who would embrace you and not compare who is more religious or less. I actually had this talk with another Jewish friend over the phone yesterday. We got into the exact same thing and I explained to him that, at least with Chabad, (Trust me, I don’t claim to know everything about orthodox observance or Chassidim for that matter, I can only speak from my own experiences)they are open to all Jews and embrace every baby step to leading a more Jewish life. The belief is not that someone is more or less Jewish, just more or less observant. For about 8 years I’ve been on one level or another involved with Chabad (started with Shabbats with one family, then did some high holidays with the community, now I live in a non Jewish community with a great Chabad house and amazing rabbi and rebbetzin. Now I’m much more involved, but not studied) and I have not experienced the ‘pointing a finger’ at me. (sorry, this is total rambling)
And so
I totally appreciate your comments and didn’t feel attacked or anything of the sort. So no worries there. As far as questioning being a reform thing vs. a orthodox thing? Must we compete? I think it’s part of Judaism and ortho came first 
neener neener neener. LOL, just so you know, I appreciate your support of whatever it is you think I’m doing. But trust me, I do more than many but FAR LESS than I think you realize 
Keep reading, I like this banter.
Hi again
This actually is working very well for me because I’m working on two school papers today and as I do this, I take breaks, read your posts and reply and it’s a nice little distraction.
As I understand it (of course I’m writing this only to be a brat) there was no Orthodox, technically before the reform movement in Germany. If I understand things correctly, the “Orthodox” was an early reaction to the drastic changes made by classical reform. Having said that somebody may be able to prove me wrong, but until then, this is what I believe based on what I’ve studied.
I would add to that the classical reform is definitely not modern Reform and I (think) understand why the Orthodox reaction in the early days. Anyhow this is not important, because I don’t see one is being better than the other and I have zero problems with Orthodox or the ultra observant.
In terms of my being impressed with you, (that is what I said isn’t it?) I didn’t mean it in a quantitative sort of way; it has nothing to do with level of observance. Really, I meant it in a qualitative way, as in the sense of honesty I’m getting from your exploration (exploration not a condescending term either).
I do agree with what you wrote about Chabad and how they just view people as more or less observant, and they are very kind and open. Having said that, I do kind of feel like there’s this underlying goal of getting be “less observant” to become more involved with their point of view and organization, so it’s not a let’s just be friends kind of thing, but that’s okay too.
I think that sounded more critical than I intended it to be and am not trying to be, I like lots of what they do and study with them when I can, and it’s appropriate.
Going back to the throwing the reform baby out with the bath water comment, I guess, all I’m suggesting is why decide it’s bad or that its defective in itself and screwed you over (my terms, not yours, you never said screwed). My women’s intuition (I got it real cheap on eBay) is telling me that it’s too drastic and you may wind up having to back track down the road, intellectually or emotionally.
Anyhow as I write this I realize that’s more about me than it is about you, so let me rephrase it this way. I’ve learnt in my short time on this planet that its easy to burn bridges even when it’s unnecessary, and it’s always much more difficult to rebuild them. And I suppose if I was you I would go about things more in terms of reform doesn’t work for me it doesn’t make sense, I don’t connect to it, so I’m going to look Somewhere else. But I would be careful to take the responsibility for myself and not place the blame on parents or reform, because that could very well come back to bite me in the ass down the road. In fact, this type of thinking and behavior has really screwed me over in the past, so I’m always cautious when I perceive others as doing something similar or the same.
I guess, from my point of view, you can move to more “honest observance” which is what I think you’re striving for, with output pooh-poohing where you come from, does that make sense?
And again, take it with a grain of salt, because as I mentioned, this is really more about me than it is about you, so take what makes sense and leave the rest behind. Just don’t back over it with your car and kill it, because that might hurt my feelings.
Oh, also about that, too bad I haven’t met nice Orthodox people who don’t………
Um the bottom line is, from an Orthodox point of view, reform probably isn’t really Judaism, and so my conversion wouldn’t really count. Now having said that I’m not convinced that the Chabad people would feel that way, but I really don’t know.
Wait, there WAS “orthodox”, but it didn’t have a name, because there were simply observant Jews. I guess we gave it the O name later. (total guess there) When these ‘new’ “movements” started up, what once was just an observant Jew got a new name. Or something like that.
You said: I do kind of feel like there’s this underlying goal of getting be “less observant” to become more involved with their point of view and organization, so it’s not a let’s just be friends kind of thing—-I have to say I understand what you’re saying, however, again, my experience is that nobody is trying to recruit me. Sure, the rabbi will talk about Chasidius and about the Rebbe. He’ll share perspectives on Tanya or something, but it’s not in a “BELIEVE THIS OR NO MORE SHABBOS FOOD FOR YOU” kind of way
It’s more of a sharing because a person has passion and love and wants to share that with the people that surround that person. I can totally understand it. I’m ok with it because I’m a free thinking woman who can differentiate what works for me and what doesn’t. And honestly, I sincerely have only felt warm intentions.
You said: t’s too drastic and you may wind up having to back track down the road, intellectually or emotionally. —-I’m not really sure what you mean, however, there is no real blame. I have nothing to blame. I feel like I missed out on so much since the reform shuls I was at didn’t explain why we do things or the ancient significances. Trust me, I’m so glad I grew up in a Jewish home on any level as so many don’t. Whatever I got from reform, or didn’t get, it’s definitely a part of who I am, and frankly, I am the most observant in my family. I have one brother with a Jewish wife, they go to a reform shul. One brother who converted to another religion (ugh), 3 step sisters: one is reform with jewish husband. Kids go to Hebrew school. One has no real religion at home but now her daughter goes to a Christian preschool and her husband is not Jewish, one who also has a non Jewish husband and does the menorah and Xmas tree and whose daughter decided she doesn’t want to go to Hebrew school anymore….OK I’m rambling again.
Again, let me say there is no blame on parents and stuff. My mom and dad totally did the “Jewish” type things at home. We did light Shabbos candles sometimes, we always had big seders, though not really understanding the meaning, we had the total Jewish foods, anyway, they did their best. My father’s mother kept Shabbos and a kosher home. He was raised sort of observant. So there is totally no blame and nthe post did not have that intention at all.
And to your last paragraph: You’re right, Chabad wouldn’t recognize your conversion as a real Jewish conversion. But before you get defensive, you should go ask a rabbi why. I think it would be good to hear and you may consider, since you seem quite sincere and deep in your newfound faith, to pursue a more observant form of conversion down the road. As a matter of fact, I think it would be powerful for you as I can see you are for real.
Ok, and with that, I’m supposed to go to my rabbi’s for lunch…well, they are sort of like extended family so I thought I’d walk over and say hi.
I’m sure I’ll hear from you soon:) Wondering what others will reply to this too.
Hi Tam
Like I said, a lot of that post was more about me than about you, so keep that in mind.
I think you’ve made excellent points, and one or two that struck me as odd, but not necessarily in a bad way, maybe just not my choice of words.
I would say you are correct with your assessment of the Orthodox thing, like I said I was being a brat.
Thanks for the clarification regarding Chabad, I already knew it second hand but didn’t want to claim it as fact, because I’ve never asked anyone directly myself.
I’ve spent a fair amount of time participating in Jewish culture within and beyond the reform tradition and have spent time with conservative, albeit modern very conservative people and I’ve heard arguments as to why my conversion would not be recognized. However I don’t really buy their arguments, my conversion process has been thorough with lots of effort and study and will continue to be so including bet din, the little c (cuz I don’t need a big C) and immersion in the Mikva.
Anyhow, it’s really not a big deal in terms of whether they accept me or not because I’m really not looking for their approval, and I think that’s confusing to some people. What I mean is that I’m comfortable enough with myself at this point in what I’m doing that I really am not seeking other people’s conformation outside of reform that is. The last thing I want to do is to debate or try to for somebody to acknowledge me who doesn’t think what I’m doing is valid, at the same time I don’t feel I need to buy into their shtick and or agree with them. Now having said that of course, it’s nice to be acknowledged as existing as a Jew. And I certainly wouldn’t knock it if that happened, but knowing what I know it’s not an expectation so I’m not going to be disappointed if and when it doesn’t happen
Your comment that struck me as odd is this one here.
“I think it would be good to hear and you may consider, since you seem quite sincere and deep in your newfound faith, to pursue a more observant form of conversion down the road”.
I consider myself a fairly observant person and I suspect that will only increase as I continue to immerse myself in living life Jewishly, but my primary modal operator is choice and that’s why I think (as no one knows anything for sure and after all, I gave you the speech about burning bridges so I wont say know) I will always be reform. My level of observance is between me and God and I have no place judging other Peoples level of observance and it’s not their place to judge me and mine. So I suppose my take is that I want to be part of a community that feels the same way and that is the reform take, informed choice when it comes to observance.
I’m certainly not going to get defensive over whether Chabad would or should recognize/acknowledge my conversion, because I’m not converting with them, and if I want their approval than I should go convert with them, but like I said that’s not what I’m trying to do. I also feel that I have a responsibility like I’ve already mentioned, not to push myself on people who don’t feel the same way about me that I do. The way I look at it is that the world can be big enough for all of us. And it’s not my problem, if they can’t see that (whoever they is, I didn’t mean Chabad per se).
Now, I fully realize that there’s a downfall to that a loose laissez-faire anything goes kind of vibe. It can lead to the problems you experienced. Nonetheless that’s the risk associated with this type of approach, and so I just have to be cognizant and careful not to fall into those traps.
There are fundamental things that I’m not prepared to sacrifice and so reform is my home spiritually. Now having said that watch me become a black hat in three weeks, just kidding.
By the way, thank you so much for the comment about being real. I take it as a huge compliment, and I really appreciate it.
And I throw it back to you by saying, I get what you’re doing and it’s awesome and I don’t know if I’ve already mentioned this, but you are a cool kid!
Like I said, this is a very complex topic. And how old the cooking? Hertzberg among others placed it’s origins firmly in the heart of the Enlightenment & those 18th century philosophers, the great Voltaire principal among these. There are many, many angles to discover here, and yes, an equally long and convoluted history too. But a portion of the question is a subset of the larger life question that’s getting ever more difficult to answer in our modern age.
There’s an old Jack Benny routine when he did his radio show in NY, and followed on with his TV show in LA. A dapper well dressed Jack is accosted on a street corner by a slightly less well dressed thug. In the TV version you know he’s a ‘bad guy’ because his period driving cap is canted at a ‘rakish angle’. He points a revolver at Jack and says: ‘Your money, or your life’. On the radio it was then that it seemed like time had stopped. The snap, crackle and hiss of the standard poor AM reception belied no answer from Jack for what seemed like an eternity. Finally after some considerable period of time the tough guy get’s more exasperated and says, ‘Well how about it?’ To which Jack looks equally puzzled (in the TV version) and replies sounding quite quizzically in return, ‘I know, I’m still thinking’!
This in it’s essence is a picture of the modern condition. It’s where we sit as Americans, as Westerners, and as modern inheritors of our tradtion, Jewish and otherwise.
This is why Chabad and the ‘Ultra Orthodox’ choose to remain apart. It’s there way of coming to grips with this central issue. How to survive where you are and to remain faithful? It’s never been an easy question, and it’s not getting any easier with age.
There are statistics about this great schism in Jewish observance. Some divide it almost in half. I think Tamara’s personal experience is not all that uncommon. I’d say the break is almost in thirds by now. One third are fairly observant & knowledgeable, questioning and questing in their faith. By objective standards they’d meet the test of most if not all requirements by, for and of Jews of the ages past, (with allowances for some growth & evolution in form & practice. Another third are following along the best they know how under current circumstances. For many of these folks, their American success has come at the high price of their faithfulness and observance. This is where Reform draws it’s greatest numbers from. It does a yeoman’s job ever trying to cajole greater involvment from their members, and coming against the resistance of the modern world in all it’s splendor, glory and temptations. To a certain degree this is true for ALL religions, it seems to affect Jews more due to the smaller population, and the fact that it’s been a perennial and continual concern of the community for yes, several hundred years. The next thrid are the great mass of ’secular jews’ who perhaps do minimal observance and are constantly subject to the latest fads (Kabbalists and the like). Many here do not observe at all, although they might be quite active in the greater community.
That’s where we’re at. On the bright side, this breakdown does not seem all that uncommon when considering other religious faiths. It would be very familiar to many Christian congregations. It still does not make any of this more pleasant. There’s another storm brewing so I’ve got to leave… Cheers & Good Luck! ‘Vj’
TikkunGer: You said the following things so let me paste them, and I’ll comment below to the corresponding numbers
1) “I don’t really buy their arguments, my conversion process has been thorough with lots of effort and study and will continue to be so including bet din, the little c (cuz I don’t need a big C) and immersion in the Mikva.”
2) “it’s really not a big deal in terms of whether they accept me or not because I’m really not looking for their approval, and I think that’s confusing to some people”
3) “I’m certainly not going to get defensive over whether Chabad would or should recognize/acknowledge my conversion, because I’m not converting with them, a”
4) “I don’t feel I need to buy into their shtick and or agree with them. “
OK–So, what I can see by these comments is a common theme that most definitely, in my opinion, is defensive. First, I think you should be cautious pointing fingers at one group. Chabad is one small group in a huge sea of observant Judaism. I only have mentioned them because it’s what I know. I haven’t spent time in a Litvach, Yeshivishe, or even modern Ortho community. It’s what I know. Period.
1) Nobody is asking you to buy anyone’s arguments. As a matter of fact, I think they’d say, there is no argument, if one is to convert based on Jewish law. And yes, the conversion process is defined somewhere (will one of my well studied observant readers please help with this detail)in Jewish writings. As far as doing a conversion with a bet din, is this a reform one? And as far as the mikvah, it’s a great STEP, but I still think that reform conversion is very different. For example, my cousin adopted a child. It was important for her to have her child be Jewish. So she did a reform baby conversion. Tell me if this sounds appropriate (to me it doesn’t and I’m pretty damn liberal). Let’s see, she wears a bikini, brings baby into the mikvah, there are men and women present, watching. I dunno, seems odd to me. Oh yeah, and photography during the process.
2) I don’t think you should look for anyone’s approval but your own, and in that case, why bother following the reform “way”. Just playing the other side to make my point. I think, the only acceptance needed is G-d’s and it is some people’s belief that G-d doesn’t recognize this type of conversion. You never asked me what I think of it. I’m not really sure if I think a person who is well studied, learned, faithful, etc. is any less jewish than one who converts in a different way.
3) I don’t think (and I’m a bit naive actually) you convert “with” a group. You just convert in an observant way. But heck, what do I know.
4) I think that last comment was sorta mean. That’s all I’ll say to that.
Let me conclude by saying, I think you’re doing a great thing. Reading your blog, you’ve gone above and beyond learning, taking your time with it, and embracing Judaism, that’s lovely, it really is. Please do not think I am downing your choice; quite contrary, if you have a Jewish bit in your soul, you have no choice but to nurture it. And with that, I do wish you a meaningful, enlightened, and ever growing conversion
(now that’s something I’ve never said before) 
Oh, boy I don’t think I came across the way I intended to!
I’m just going to randomly try to work these out with you, rather I’m going to try to straighten out what I was attempting to express in my last post.
Not defensive factual as in I wouldn’t argue with Chabad people about it, okay of which you are one, but I didn’t really consider this exchange to be official.
** The following is a little out of context, because I’ve come back and I did it after having written the bulk of this post.
What I mean by not defending means I’m not going to go to a Chabad center and debate or argue the point with them or even on the street, not that I would expect such a thing to happen. It’s just a question of respect; I don’t want to pick a fight with somebody who feels differently than I do especially in their home. This here town is big enough for the two of us, etc. and ultimately the goal here would be although in some muddled way, knowing me to try to focus on similarities and not on differences.
End of insert *****
I wasn’t trying to be disrespectful towards Chabad, it was more just my way of saying, and I don’t have to participate in it. You know, as in its okay if Orthodox/Chabad doesn’t recognize the conversion, because I don’t expect them to. If I wanted to be recognized by these groups, then I shouldn’t be converting reform, I should be converting with one of them. It’s really meant more in terms of no harm no foul. Sometimes I don’t come across as well as I would like to in the written format, however I’m almost 100% positive that if I did this as an interpretive dance you would know exactly what I meant.
All kidding aside, I’m not slamming Chabad, in the least. All I’m saying is that I don’t feel I have to accept their rulings or their perception of what’s what within the context of the community I am going to be part of, that’s reform. That’s all I meant when I don’t have to buy their shtick, and to be honest, I would use the same term in reverse. They obviously don’t have to buy my shtick.
As for the baby conversion, I agree 100% hard to take that seriously and there’s no way that would fly with my rabbi, my congregation or any other congregation I know of here in Canada. To be fair, I have to say that I’m told that in Canada, most reform rabbis are more conservative than the average American conservative rabbi, but that’s just hearsay I don’t know it to be a fact.
I know my rabbi is extremely picky about the conversion process, and personally I think we work harder and study more than people converting at an Orthodox Temple in my city, but again, I could be wrong. I’m just going off intuition and what I’ve heard from other people who have converted. My conversion process is been thorough and strict and emotionally grueling. The rabbi puts us through our paces and is definitely not always gentle with us; people do cry and get upset.
In terms of acceptance, I don’t know if you misunderstood me or if it’s something you take for granted and please I’m not implying anything condescending, but to become a Jew (at least as a convert) is about being excepted by your community. I don’t need to be a Jew in order to get straight with God or to study & follow the Torah, but to be part of the peoplehood, I do need to be accepted I mean, it’s like joining a family you can’t just force your way and that’s something I worked hard at resolving within myself and I spent a lot of time on the Blog dealing with it. So when I say I don’t need there acceptance as in from Orthodox or other more traditional streams, what I mean is that I’m not participating in that religious community so their acceptance really is neither here nor there although sure it would be nice, but it’s not going to make or break me.
And at least in my mind, that doesn’t imply my thinking they are wrong and I’m right, because that’s not what I mean. A Para-rabbinical friend of mine (in the reform tradition of course) asked me if I thought reform, conversion was enough? My reply to her was yes; if you want to be a Reform Jew otherwise know it’s not enough. This has nothing to do with more right or less write, its got to do with personal expectations and how one chooses to practice as well as the expectations of the community.
Now people could completely disagree with that notion and that’s fine, maybe I’m missing the boat. But what I am not doing is implying that one is superior to the other just that they’re different. And from the point of view of community, a convert needs to align him or herself with the traditions and expectations of the community they’re trying to join, the family they’re trying to become part of.
So please really don’t be insulted by what I’m saying, I am totally impressed with what you are doing ( not that should matter to you) , maybe I am a little disappointed that you are “bugged” by reform, but that’s your choice and would be wrong of me not to respect the conclusions you’ve come to. By the way when I say disappointed, I only mean in the mild sense of, when I find music and I really like it I want everyone to like it is much as I do.
The shtick comments I’m sorry for using it. I am less sensitive to language than other people, and I always forget that, but honestly, I would use the same term towards myself and so I assume it’s okay for me to use it towards others. I just meant like live and let live your shtick my shtick.
I just reread your number four to make sure I understood what it was that I said, and I don’t feel I need to buy into it really only means I don’t feel I have to conform to it for me, but I respect another person’s right to do things in what ever way they choose to view them (for example, not considering my conversion valid but that certainly doesn’t mean I shouldn’t consider it valid).
As for the bet din, I sort of feel like I’m being baited here, but you know it’s a reform Bet din because no Orthodox one would meet with reform converts. And so, I understand that if it’s not an Orthodox one made up of rabbis are what ever the precise procedure is Orthodox won’t consider it valid. However, really that’s not my problem, that’s not disrespectful that’s just calling a spade a spade. Like I mentioned in a previous post I don’t want a force other people (outside of reform) to recognize my conversion, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to let.
Them define it for me. I certainly wouldn’t start attending an Orthodox you’ll and try pushing my way up on two Bema (sorry not sure about the spelling) and try to read the Torah portion, because that would be rooting inappropriate. But I also wouldn’t let Orthodox people challenge me in my own temple, does that make sense?
Anyhow I’m sorry if my comments rubbed you the wrong way because that certainly wasn’t my intention.
And I do seriously appreciate your comments and support because it’s a really nice thing to hear, or rather read, you know what I mean.
Tikkun–I do understand what you are getting at, no worries there. Again, I admire, from what I’ve read in your blog, your whole conversion process. In all honesty, the amount you’ve studied and learned surpasses my own studies and learning. Of course there are things I feel and know and understand simply because I am a Jew with some sort of inherent and learned values. Additionally, being around very observant Jews in convenient whenever I need a question answered.
It’s sort of like you said, I’m just disappointed in the reform conversion because I sincerely think you’ve surpassed that. And like your perfect analogy, I’d want someone to see in it what I see.
One thing you’re wrong about is that I am not a Chabadnik. I am part of a shul that happens to be Chabad with a Chabad rabbi. However, I do not live in a black hat community or a Jewish community for that matter. Yes, there are Jews in my neighborhood, but we are few and far and not centered in one zone. I just want you to understand that my point of view comes from a very different place. It’s not like I’m frum and saying you’re wrong. It’s not like I’m reform either.
In regards to your other note, I’ll quickly and simply say—absolutely no hard feelings and of course communication will continue, and yes, you totally read that whole thing wrong. Understandably as communication on line is tricky and tone and facial expressions are not here to help us.
And with that, I’m going to go de-foil my kitchen, put away my pesach pots, pans, and containers, and eat some CHAMETZ……..WHOOOPPIIE
Poignant questions. I don’t really have answers but perhaps “my friends we were Robbed” by Uri zohar would be a good book for you.
Great posting, Tamara.
Wow! Great posting. I am orthodox, and while I can’t source the conversion thing, there is a detail of orthodox conversion that, to me, seems to directly point to tikkunger’s concerns.
Orthodoxy does not necessarily believe that conversion is necessary for a spiritual existence (I am not sure of reform’s stance on this). They do believe that once Jewish there are observances that should be strived for. The judgement of the how well you have acheived these observances is the converted’s and the converted’s alone. The orthodox conversion process ( as I understand it) simply ensures that you are aware, before conversion, of the criteria by which you should judge yourself – ensuring that you understand that you understand what it is you should be striving for. We (I am clearly orthodox) believe that if you are not satisfied with those goals, you should not convert altogether, when you can retain a level of spiritual connection to god and , for those who consider it prime, go to heaven, as a non-jew.
Yeah – this is a pretty unbelievable topic, no? How is it that one can be submerged in a religion or culture, and yet not know what to pray, or know why they believe what they do.
This is a great example of just doing things we’re told is right, without really examining things ourselves. Mechanical v. organic, really. This is an issue in Christianity, as I am a Christian.
People are raised in the church, with Godly parents. Yet when the kids grow up, they don’t really know why they believe what they do. They probably don’t even really know how to pray from the heart. This is because, from my observations, their faith isn’t real. Not to say that their faith is dead, but that they’ve never taken time to live out (actively) their faith in a way they believe is true.
I think this entire issue is about the heart (not to say that one’s heart isn’t pure or good if they don’t feel they have an alive and active faith). An issue of the heart as in how ‘alive’ is the faith in one’s heart.
Christians believe that Christ came down and died for everyone’s sins. It is by grace we are saved, not by works. (Pslams 14:2) We receive love and grace, therefore we follow christ and his teachings, because we desire so. Until this is understood and desired, I think a lot of christians experience what you openly and honestly blogged about. I think a lot of this disconnected feeling happens in many religions. And if one believes that doing good works is the way to obtain salvation, their life will be riddeled with guilt, as they’ll never make the ‘bar’.
Jeremiah 29:13 – Seek me with all your heart. That is what God desires of us. And until we can do that, I believe we will always have that ‘distant’ feel. And as a christian, my faith becomes alive, and active, as christ has renewed my mind and spirit – and I am a new creation. He has saved me, therefore I have a desire in my heart to actively live for him.
Hi Tamara
Thanks for the complements in your last comment post.
Also, I agree 100% that being raised Jewish just naturally puts you in a special type of environment ripe for learning, if not consciously than by subconscious osmosis.
To Prag;
Thanks for the book suggestion is it intended for me, for her, or for both of us. Also, can I ask what is it about this Book that makes it a good fit with this discussion?
To Simple;
I agree with what you’re saying 100% and what you’re presenting as the orthodox view of conversion, you certainly don’t need to be Jewish in order to be a ” Righteous Gentile”, as I understand it the idea goes back at least to the days of Noah and the seven Noachide laws, in fact, if you do a search on Google you’ll find that there are whole movements of Righteous Gentiles who practice not as Jews, but have congregations set up to worship in a Jewish fashion and study from the Torah. I think it’s kind of cool, but I’m left wondering if you’re going to be that serious about things, why not just go the full ten yards, I guess, different strokes for different folks.
Lastly the reform take is the same in terms of conversion, in that the conversion process is really about making sure you understand what it is that you’re getting yourself into. Having said that I think the understanding and relationship to the Mitzvot is certainly different, but I would suggest taken equally serious in a Reform conversion.
My conversion group, which isn’t actually called a conversion group, but rather an intro to Judaism group has been an interesting mix of people, and I think a lot of people came to it with some misunderstandings or maybe I could call it an under developed understanding of what it means to be Jewish. I certainly think I was one of those people at the beginning of this process, but am with the help of others and God muddling my way through to a clearer seeing of things.
I guess, at least from the reform perspective, an important part of the conversion process is understanding and embracing the peoplehood aspect. Because as you have previously; mentioned you don’t need to be a Jew to be righteous.
However (IMO) you do need to be part of the tribe in order to be Jewish, and that of course includes God and Torah but has to have that extra peoplehood ingredient added for it to be about conversion.
Of course that’s in my opinion and I might very well be wrong.
Anyhow an early Shabbat Shalom and Good Shabbos to everyone.
I just have to say I am enjoying the interactions on this post. I’m not real comfortable with the Christ stuff, but hey, this is a public blog and I’m glad it reaches a wide variety of people. All perspectives are intriguing.
I also have to say that I think this post has gotten some of the best discussion yet on my blog. Perhaps I should keep posts in this tone because not only do I learn, but people are interested.
I dunno. I’m sure you’ll have to read about some of my teaching stories when I go back to work on May 1.
This post is a prob Tam. You’ve got too many intelligent people reading your blog. It’s a good thing I’m here to represent the low class and stupid to balance things out.
(word verification fayug)
I was going to add something to Marty’s thoughts here. Isn’t the sex/dating stuff supposed to elicit the most responses on Blogs? Just wondering…Cheers & Good Luck! ‘VJ’
Wow, this is quite a conversation that is going on here, and I’m obviously coming in at the very end. I can sympathize will Tam and her feelings and just want to say that no matter one’s level of observance, each step up the ladder toward HaShem is just as difficult as the step before. Some people are struggling with making sure that some obscure part of the shulchan aruch is followed scrupulously- some folks have trouble waking up and putting on their t-fillin, some folks are just trying to get to the synagogue on high holy days. It doesn’t get more difficult at the top of the ladder its hard for everyone. And I really believe that HaShem knows this and loves all of us and respects all of our efforts. You are an amazing gal Tam! Everyone knows it. G-d most of all.